Curse

Captain Krompdown · Jun 16, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backwards Necro

--Warriors already have a no drawback rune all to themselves, and why?

Because warrior armor doesn't have high enough armor. Improve warrior armor and get rid of absorption. Problem solved.

BahamutKaiser · Jun 16, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

lol, Return isn't the only good teleport skill...... it is the only one I apprciate.
There are some other teleport skills that Assassins can use, I just don't like them and don't feel they are fair. Aura of Displacement is useful, I just don't think it is Elite enough, with that much cost. And Shadow of Haste is a functional in and out skill as well, I just don't like it.

As an Elite teleport I think being able to teleport to any enemy or allie for 10 energy every 10 or 15 seconds would be good. Aura of Displacement can be expensive enough with the maintenance alone, it could very well be cheaper, Recall should be cheaper, wile Deaths Charge and Heart of Shadow need about 1/3 the current recast time to be worth a skill slot.

The real point, relavent to the topic, is that teleports are skills used, skills which unfortunatly arn't even good enough to compensate for the differences in attack advantage or defense other classes have, the static effectiveness of Assassin (his weapons, armor, and runes) isn't any better, in truth worse than Warrior or Ranger, and trying to bring in the use of their skills to compete with Warrior and Ranger wile overlooking the equal use of skill slots by those classes and the fact that theirs are better is actually further proof that Assassin is lacking.

I think the true problem with Assassin is his teleport skills, not the use of runes. Evasion runes are a defensive improvement which will only work on physical attacks (Warriors, Rangers, Pets and other Assassins). Adding defensive runes to Assassin isn't what I have in mind, they arn't ment to be tanks, and evasion only helps them defend against Rangers and Warriors, and other Assassins. Assassins teleporting power overall is insufficient IMO, that can't be replaced by runes, and I hope they improve their skills, but as a class who is still "ment" to move into combat, deal "alot" of damage, and Move out again, I would perfer if they had an attack rune. Damage +1-3 to all attacks (actuall increase in damage not to attack figures), or increased Dual Attack rate by 5%-15%, or increased energy gained by critical +1 (not three teirs but one rune for only 1 point increase), or reduce duration of conditions and/or hexes 10%-30% (reducing the duration of hexes can also be determental so not a great idea), or reduce degen by 1-3

Because Assassins are much more skill based, I think high reductions in all conditions would be a great rune choice, giving Assassin higher defense over conditions rather than attacks, this is actually an opposite kind of defense compared to Warrior. Warrior is good at defending against damage, but is just as weak against degen and conditions, if Assassin had high defense against conditions they would be weaker against damage, but stronger vs ailments and some kinds of degen. This is also something I would like improved on Assassin armor in general, the slight reduction in certain conditions is nice, but because it only covers a few conditions it is just like the condtitional armor, a very slim chance of being effective. Unlike damage reduction (which isn't just in Warrior runes, but a mod is some warrior armor), and Physical damage reduction (which covers damage dealt by any kind of pysical attack), condition reductions are so narrow that they are likely to take no effect at all, the enemy may not even use conditions, and then if they do, there's only a chance it will be reduced by your armor. I think the Condition reduction on many Assassin armors should be universal, reducing all conditions by 10%, add on Runes of Resiliance for another 10%, 20% or 30% condition reduction, and you greatly reduce damage and "crippling" effects conditions have on Assassin, not only increasing their defense against a different but significant kind of damage, but reducing the need to bring condition removal skills, allowing for more room to bring the other skills Assassin will need to compensate for Defense. Warrior having High defense against damage and bringing Condition removal compared to Assassin having high defense against conditions and bringing skills to help avoid damage or heal themselves more, I think Assassin would break a fair possition in defensive effectiveness and non-penalty runes. That doesn't mean I would appreciate the crappy teleport recasts and costs, but it would help alot.

Again, I would certainly prefer redevelopement of teleport skills over giving Assassin some rune to compensate, a non-penalty rune is ment to be an improvement at best, not compensation for the classes defense and effectiveness in general, but since it is a melee class, I would still appreciate if they did have one.

I am Sorry this thread (partly due to my involvement) has focused clearly on whether or not Assassin deserves some non-penalty runes, I still think other classes could greatly benefit and that it would be acceptable if they had some sort of improving runes as well. Considering the attack rate and lack of damage modifiers on Ranger, having a rune which increased Rangers attack damage by +1-3 damage would be better than (more balanced than) giving it to Assassin. Ranger doesn't have 2 attributes to increase "their" attack damage, like Strength and Critical Strikes, and thier Bows have some of the slowest attacks in the game. This compliments the "piercing" damage a Bow should do, and because Bows are slow, it wouldn't have an extreme effect the way it would on a Dagger wielder (fastest strike rate). Also, in the advent of the Touch Ranger, I truely doubt the damage of the ranger would be severly improved. Alot of Rangers have taken advantage of Rangers "caster" oriented Primary, so having a rune which helped them improve in physical attacks would be incentive for them to focus on physcial rather than magical, not that I'm saying they should. This may still be too strong since..... Ranger can choose Assassin secondary and use daggers for that fast attack rate, the damage increase may be too much in that circumstance. So perhaps the rune can improve "ranged" attacks by +1-3 damage.

I think reducing some class specific difficulties on each class could greatly improve the gameplay for those classes, they may be more powerful, but I don't think it is any thing that would break the game, or at least it can be tempered enough so it wouldn't, and some classes are needing of some improvement, Warriors dilema of being a melee class and neccessity to overcome damage isn't any greater than Elementist dilema with Exhaustion, or Necromancers Dilema with Sacrifices. Improvements to skills which other classes have on only a few skills isn't going to make them more effective in every way (unlike defending better on a vast majority of damage), improvement on some of the unique difficulties on a few of their skills would improve the effectiveness of their attacks, energy management, or health management issues they have, making them more functional, they don't have to be so strong that they throw the balance of the game off, just a tiny improvement is a nice and enjoyable improvement to any classes gameplay.

samifly · Jun 16, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

I'd like to point out that warriors are not balanced as you can see in many threads about pvp, most of the time pvp involves helping your warrior, or getting the enemy warrior off your back.
I'd like to see a additional rune set, but perhaps not per-profession but ones for casters (maybe extend casting range?) and another for rangers and assassins. I dont know how you would work it out, possibly make identical runes for each class.

Rogmar · Jun 16, 2006, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by samifly

I'd like to point out that warriors are not balanced as you can see in many threads about pvp, most of the time pvp involves helping your warrior, or getting the enemy warrior off your back.
I'd like to see a additional rune set, but perhaps not per-profession but ones for casters (maybe extend casting range?) and another for rangers and assassins. I dont know how you would work it out, possibly make identical runes for each class.

Um... there's almost a skill in every non-warrior profession that renders the warrior useless
Monk:Various protections, Guardian most likely
Ranger:Stances, Throw Dirt
Mesmer:Many blinding spells/Empathy
Elementalist:Blinding Flash/Blurred Vision
Necromancer:Spiteful Spirit+Reckless Haste
Ritualist:Shadowsong, Wanderlust, Displacement
Assassin:Temple Strike
Anyone who actually thinks warriors are overpowered for the conditions they must meet (Close range combat, low energy, etc...) is whining...

Chaco Nautzi · Jun 16, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I dont know why you think warriors have too little armor, last I recall plat(in pve only) was 85 armor alone 15 above max necro armro, and glads has what? 75, (+20 vs Physical) whcih is the again type of damage assassin does....but assassins only have like 60 armor and most of the effect reduce conditions, not give bonuses for going into the frontlines o:

(This is all going off memory, I didnt actually look up the amount of armor)

Priest Of Sin · Jun 16, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

look at it this way...

IF THEY STACK: Assassin+5 superior evasion runes= pain in the BUTT..

BahamutKaiser · Jun 17, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

There are counters to everything in the game, and guess what, there are several things physical skills are not subject too, like interrupts in particular.

Bringing up only the Warrior counters and trying to point them out as reasons Warrior is dibilitated isn't even an arguement, your obviously overlooking the many counters other classes have, and specifically, the counters Warrior has for those classes, first and foremost being survival vs many damage types. Furthermore, nearly every Warrior counter can be countered in turn by simple status removal and hex removal, almost all of which come at a lower energy cost and have faster recast.

Arguements which only veiw difficulties for one class are totaly blind and neglagent, a good moderator would correct them and squelch such nonsense.

The fact that Rogmar actually listed low energy as one of Warriors weaknesses proves he has an utter lack of balanced persepctive, dual skill costs allows for Warrior to power his adrenaline based skills with adrenaline, wile using energy to power other skills. This is about the same as saying "I have less to eat because I only have one ear of corn and you have two", Wile clearly overlooking the fact that you have a peice of steak and corn, and I only have 2 ears of corn. I almost wish logic and reason were forced on the population, but then we wouldn't have cheap grunt labor.

Non Penalty runes don't stack either, just like every rune in the game, somebody get out the "Club of Logical Correction", I need to smash some ppl.

(two paragraphs of flaming that served no purpose)

I dont' want this to become flamefest, but moderators should remove totaly blind and ignorant statements from their threads..... these are just dumb.

I would read you some caster counters, but I don't have time to list half the skills in the mesmers library, almost every Domination Magic in particular, and several skills from every single class, because every class has several counters for several, if not all other classes.

Backwards Necro · Jun 17, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

I dont think he was talking about the assassin sup runes being(stackable more than like 2 maybe) more than like....5% or maybe like 2-4-6(min-maj-sup) but anyway, assassin dont recieve damage from only other melee classes, they get hit by casters and even though ele damage is reduced some because of armor, it cant be evaded, the evasion rune is however to give assassins a power-up sort of thing.

Jade_Onyx · Jun 17, 2006, 08:33 AM // 08:33

I'm sorry if this has been said, its late, and some of these posts are way too long for me to read right now. If you take a look at warrior skills, they are the only class limited to using 3 of their attributes. Now I know some of you will say other classes will not use 4 atts, since that spreads things out, but a warrior takes his strength, tactics and weapon skills, and the other two are ignored (and no, taking hammer knockdown skills and switching to it to knock down on a regular basis is really not feasable (?)). And to some of the assasins in this thread, if your taking bucket loads of damage, then you need to take a look at your build again. I've seen assasins take down any and all classes (far out damaging anything a warrior could dream of doing) and port away before they could take too much damage. And no, I'm not saying assasins can kill everything and are overpowered. They have their strengths, and weaknesses. But the assasins class is not ment to take damage. Thats the warriors job. If you like taking damage in the bucket loads, play a warrior. If you like doing damage to casters but still want to be a melee fighter, play an assasin. Anywho, I've lost track of where this was going so I'll end it here.

Again, sorry if this makes no sense, or for the typing. Its too late and I need sleep.

Rogmar · Jun 23, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BahamutKaiser

The fact that Rogmar actually listed low energy as one of Warriors weaknesses proves he has an utter lack of balanced persepctive, dual skill costs allows for Warrior to power his adrenaline based skills with adrenaline, wile using energy to power other skills. This is about the same as saying "I have less to eat because I only have one ear of corn and you have two", Wile clearly overlooking the fact that you have a peice of steak and corn, and I only have 2 ears of corn. I almost wish logic and reason were forced on the population, but then we wouldn't have cheap grunt labor.

Nothing prevents any other class from using adrenaline either. As a matter fact Assassins have furious mod, if they ever want to Critical/Axe specialize. The fact that Warriors have little energy makes them rely almost solely on the Warrior profession, except for things like Shock, Tigers Fury, etc. because they need to conserve some of the energy for stances such as Frenzy/Sprint. Many of the other classes can use other professions to great effect such as Mesmer and Monk secondaries because of the large energy pool that lets them afford these spells. Now, if there were much more classes that didn't rely on spells, this arguement wouldn't be valid, but then again we're only complaining about the lack of no-drawback runes for the remaining 7 professions...

Rikimaru · Jun 23, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

I Don't remember where I saw it, but I like the idea of assassins having a rune that adds +3%-6%-9% run speed.

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jun 23, 2006, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Does anyone still remembers that Warriors only have 2 pips of energy regeneration? Rangers have 3 pips, but they have Expertise to deal with that, and the rest have 4 pips.

I vote No for "New no-drawback runes for non warrior classes"

Absorbtion Runes' drawback is the fact that Warrior Armor does not provide any other additional pip of energy regeneration.

If non warrior class receive "new no-drawback runes", then Warriors must receive something new too to compensate.

Phoenix Arrows · Jun 23, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

If there are going to be no-drawback runes, then the effects of them should be passive (I think that's the right word). There shouldn't be any percentage things like the Evasion and Daze with some spells or anything. It should be like (for Mesmer) a loss of 1/3 of 1 energy on the foe. I'm not that creative but all I know is that the effect should happen all the time.

Chaco Nautzi · Jun 23, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

(sorry about trailing off, akward sentence structures and [also sorry for alot of stupid in this post]various misspellings ahead of time Im very tired for some reason and losing consciousness as I type)
I like the all-at-the-same-time effect idea...

But I dont think that assassins shoudl be able to stack like evasion runes(if they get them)

and Can we get a "At least read some of the previous posts before posting" rule to keep peopel such as Hturt from going in posting what everyone else has been saying....then having to counter that? Warrior isnt supposed to have a hell of a lot of energy in the first place....and they dont need any extra I dont like to see wars out there with already like 37 energy (glads and energy weap) able to cop off a few spells that, they quite frankly, shouldnt have(high energy ones).

My point is wars dont need compensation for this horrible assassin rune thats coming into play, when theyre really the ones who would need compensation for warriors being able to have an absorption rune. Assassins have to be up there with wars...they need something, running speeds might just increase runner delaying the inevitable during RA matches, and I think the non-stacking evasion rune is what would help. Also i think it's kind of concieted(sp?>.>) that you think that warriors having less energy is the drawback(drawbacks are -50, -75) and you think that warriors are so horrible that it would be incredibly unfair to level the playing field for assassins...

Minus Sign · Jun 23, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I like this idea and don't. While Warriors have Absorption runes all to themselves, they need the buff as they spend so much of their time in harms way. Factor in how rarely Warriors use their own Superior runes due to the health consequences and Absortion/Vigor are the most used runes on a Warriors armor.

Then again, tell that to an Assassin.

As more professions make their way into Guild Wars, Absorption will increasingly see play as a deciding factor between tanks and other characters in game.

/A conditional signed. This needs a lot more thought on which attributes need buffing and which should be avoided. Skills and conditions to focus on would probably be Exhaustion, hex uptime, attack power, mana gain per critical hit, skill reharge, spell recharge, sacrificing, arrow flight speed or firing speed, enchantment uptime, run buffs, etc.

The trick is to make these runes unique while still adding to the effectiveness of the proffession. We don't want Rangers wearing a Sundering mod on their feet or Monks dropping Diving Favor. These should be useful to the class without adding to/replacing things we already have.

Rikimaru · Jun 23, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Here's why I love the idea of assassins getting a passive run speed buff rune:
When they aren't using teleports (which they can't use all the time, and many builds don't even have room for one) They can rush in more easily, and they can rush back out again more easily. They can avoid fights altogether more easily, and the greatest reason of all; PERMANENT ASSASSIN SPRINT ANIMATION!!!

Rogmar · Jun 23, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaco Nautzi

and Can we get a "At least read some of the previous posts before posting" rule to keep peopel such as Hturt from going in posting what everyone else has been saying....then having to counter that? Warrior isnt supposed to have a hell of a lot of energy in the first place....and they dont need any extra I dont like to see wars out there with already like 37 energy (glads and energy weap) able to cop off a few spells that, they quite frankly, shouldnt have(high energy ones).

Maybe we should use the same rule for you.
Like I said before, there's builds that are viable with lots of energy. Shock warriors for example, and even Tigers fury warriors, or warriors that use self enchants (no, not healing prayers)
If you don't want to see the low energy pool as a draw back, I suggest you look at their primary attribute, strength. Strength adds armor penetration only while using attack skills. This isn't even a 100% passive attribute. Most keep Strength around 10 or so to equip the shield, and for the ever favorite skill "Sprint". If sprint wasn't in Strength, no doubt Tactics would become the new Warrior primary. That's how bad Strength is.
Not only that, if you look at every class's Primaries, they are all some sort of direct/indirect energy management (save Ritualists which I can explain later)
Assassins = High Critical %, Critical = Energy
Monks = More heal from DF = Less Energy needed (usually)
Rangers = Expertise, enough said
Mesmer = This one's a little bit tricky, Their skills are full of energy management while their primary lets them cast faster, Ok their primary doesnt let them save energy, but they have an entire attribute to do it.
Necromancers = Soul Reaping + Minions = Super effectiveness, Even without minions they're sacrificing balances out with low energy costs, and soul reaping still works, just not as rapidly with minions.
Elementalists = Energy Storage (Need I say more?)
Now Ritualists...Spawning power lets their spirits that damage themselves (Not die after X amount of time, but -X life when Y happens) last longer. Because more health = more uses like Union for example.
Now you say, well Warriors don't need energy so why does it matter? Sure warriors don't need energy, but what about their other "skill management" adrenaline? Only few skills help gain adrenaline as well as the furious mod. Hitting foes is analagous to Energy regen, and Furious mod is analagous to Zealous. So really, warriors are being compensated for their lack of a decent primary attribute
For a one liner...-3 Damage doesn't barely helps...

As for Assassin's speed boost...No balance at all (I hope you can understand why it is...)

Thermo · Jun 23, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

If everyone gets a special nice rune with no drawbacks, then the warrior primary needs to be reivisted, maybe 2% armor penetration again? and on all attacks as well?

Edit: Shoot someone beat me to the point that Strength is rather lacking....

Chaos Herald · Jun 23, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Signed, but only for the ele rune, as there is currently no cure for exhaustion.

Cybah · Jun 23, 2006, 11:52 PM // 23:52

/signed I like new ideas